What They Said
Discover 'What They Said,' the Influencer Marketing Podcast by PrettyGreen, the B Corp certified, award-winning creative communications agency.
Join us each week as our team delves deep into the creator economy, featuring guest content creators, savvy marketers, and industry experts who spill the latest influencer marketing secrets
The series will feature guests who are having an impact on the creator economy, lifting the lid on the in’s and outs of the industry.
What They Said
How To Get Consumer Tails Wagging | What They Said: The Influencer Marketing Podcast | Ep.6
How do you break into a competitive industry with zero budget?
🐾 Dive into the latest episode of the "What They Said" podcast, where we sit down with Kezia Price and Sophie Van der Veken from Tails.com, a trailblazer in the pet food industry. Discover how they've successfully harnessed the power of influencers to transform the brand and create a loyal customer base.
🎙️ Key Highlights:
- How Tails.com was recognized as one of the top brands influencers want to work with at the Be Creator Awards
- The importance of a holistic, full-funnel marketing approach in influencer strategies
- The impact of integrated PR and performance-driven campaigns on brand growth
Whether you're a marketing professional, influencer, or just passionate about the creator economy (or just love dogs!) this episode is packed with valuable insights and practical tips. Don't miss out!
Our podcast is available on all streaming platforms;
Hello and welcome to the what they Said podcast where each week, we deep dive into all things influencer marketing. We're joined by brands, influencers, other agencies, talent managers and real cross -section of the creator economy. My name's Sammy. I am your host.
Speaker 1:I am influencer strategy lead at Pretty Green and I'm going to be joined by some industry titans that have far more to say about the industry than I do far more eloquently, who are not reading off of a script. So in this podcast we really want to create a safe space for everyone to have unfiltered conversations around the creator economy. This week I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined by two of my favorite people from the creator economy here in the UK. We've got Kezia Price and Sophie van de Becken from towelscom. Welcome guys.
Speaker 3:Thanks, thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:What I do at the start of each one of these is read out a bio that I've written for you. You haven't seen this.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:So it is full of absolutely awful things.
Speaker 3:Okay, fantastic.
Speaker 1:Just kidding, so I'll read it out, and if there's anything I've forgotten, just jump in, tell so I'll read it out. And if there's anything I've forgotten, just jump in, tell me. I'm wrong and correct me, but we've had the absolute pleasure of working together a couple of times in the past, and most recently towards the end of last year with some wonderful dog content, because obviously you're from towelscom. So towelscom is a real leading brand that offers tailor-made kibble for all of us dog lovers out there, not for us, for the dogs. So here's the bio and again, tell me if I got anything wrong.
Speaker 2:So, sophie, you are the affiliates, partnership and influencer manager at towelscom and you've been in the role for a few years now yeah, as a manager for about a year or a bit more, but I've been at dealscom for more than five years, so yeah, a.
Speaker 1:A long long time. Yeah, so, kezia, you are the PR and communications manager at Talescom, and you've been in the role a few years now.
Speaker 3:Yes, I've been at Talescom for four years now, which has blown by, but yeah.
Speaker 1:And the way both of you have worked with influencers over the past few years has really shifted, so we're going to get into that um. But I also wanted to say a massive congrats and nod to you as well, because towelscom has recognized that the be creator awards for being one of the top brands for influencers to work with uh, last year. So really testament to how you do trust influencers, work with them, that must have been quite a quite a great one for you guys.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we were so happy, yeah and there's some great brands in the running for that yeah, like some really kind of established brands in the industry, I think we were really, really honored that um creators had nominated us um for that award after really not like we've not been doing influence marketing for you know years upon, years so to be recognized after just a few was yeah, amazing, a real testament.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were just beaming when we sat at the awards. We were just both beaming with pride, definitely.
Speaker 1:Can you remember who else was in that category?
Speaker 2:It was like Disney Pandora, I think, yeah, gymshark, I think as well, so real names that have been working with influencers for like 10 years. Yes.
Speaker 1:Pandora Disney.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then to be amongst that is really great as well, yeah. So towelscom offers tailor-made kibble and food blends that are perfect for any dog, whatever their needs. And Sophie van der Beekin is affiliate partnerships and influencer manager at towelscom, and Kezia Price is PR and comms manager. And you've extensively extensively with creators in the UK, so much so that you were recognized by being one of the top brands influencers want to work with in the UK with a nod at last year's B Creator Awards. Did I forget anything there?
Speaker 2:No, I think so.
Speaker 1:Any more strings to your bow that you would like to add to that.
Speaker 2:No, not really. I think that's fine, yes, good.
Speaker 1:And, above all, you get to work with dogs as well. Yes, could your job be any more perfect.
Speaker 2:Not really. Yeah, and we've got each other as well.
Speaker 1:so I mean so nice, you're so pleasant to your colleagues. I can't stand mine. Before we get into questions, we were discussing a moment ago off camera, off mic, about who we see as our sort of dog energy and I said I see myself as golden retriever and you both went absolutely, golden retriever, really vanilla, quite a boring breed. You know, like everyone likes them, no one loves them.
Speaker 3:Yes, trustworthy, playful Fun.
Speaker 1:Is that my star sign?
Speaker 3:Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1:Kezia, your dog.
Speaker 3:What? Yes, it's like my star sign. Yeah, there you go, kezia, your dog. What is it? I said red setter, but before that you said border collie, yeah, both pleasant, I would say border collies round people up like sheep.
Speaker 1:Organized, organized, yes, very things done motivated, yes, energetic apparently they're the most intelligent dog breed true, well thanks I'll take it.
Speaker 3:I will take that yeah, I'll go with that then.
Speaker 1:So I'm border collie yeah, sophie, sure what diesel your dog diesel yeah bless him. 13 years old, he is young he's young at heart. Yeah, young at heart well, he's a mixed, isn't he?
Speaker 2:he's a mix between a toy poodle and an Australian cattle dog.
Speaker 1:I do not see poodle in him at all when I look at him. No At all.
Speaker 2:He's like his own type of breed Little sassy, little sassy.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't like him to be fair. Really, little sassy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's a good mix.
Speaker 3:I don't know what kind of dog breed, but something kind of direct Because you are, but it's great. This is why we got on A direct.
Speaker 1:And it needs to be something slightly more European.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Border Collie is very Scottish very English.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, I don't know. We can come back to this at the end of the episode.
Speaker 1:Yes, I want you, as we go through this, not to. What dog breed would I be I?
Speaker 2:will.
Speaker 1:Anyway, onto the proper chat. Obviously we've worked together over the years and I think the way that tailscom has shown up in the creative economy, the way you've worked with influencers, has really quite evolved. And I think, sophie, you can speak to your time as sort of a performance-focused driving, user acquisition, customer acquisition and Kezia more from a PR and earn perspective as well. So we've kind of got some questions I'd love to whittle through um that actually all of the office fed into, because obviously we've got good knowledge of towelscom. Um, but Sophie, kezia, on paper your roles do seem completely different, I think it's fair to say completely different remits from different realms um, one with a focus on driving those lower funnel metrics conversion beyond consideration and really driving those advocates, and Kezia brand building, strategic PR campaigns and those PR-able moments. I think a lot of people forget that Influencer was born from PR in the first instance. I know we often see it as like a media buyer, but ultimately it came, in my opinion, it came from PR yeah years and years ago.
Speaker 1:But if we track things back to their roots, do you find that your realms have been increasingly overlapping um over the past few years?
Speaker 3:yeah, and I think you know having a joined up strategy it makes, it just makes for better kind of full funnel marketing, which is now what we've moved into um, and I think if you put in a combined effort and look across the business at how you can kind of maximize impact for influencers it makes more sense.
Speaker 2:It does, so yeah I think first, when we started working on influencers at dealscom, it was mostly gezia doing it, yeah oh, really okay yeah, yes. So she started off like the og. I would say, um, working with influencers in the more organic way, um, but then, when we were expanding partnerships within my team, we saw that there was definitely a gap in what we could do potential for that focus yeah, to grow the channel and really make it a robust channel in our channel mix.
Speaker 2:So I work, like you say, a lot with like driving new customer acquisition with different digital channels at Talescom and I think when we joined forces, kezia had done all of that like brand building and building those relationships already, so we could utilize that to also then drive new customer acquisition. And, like Kezia was saying, um, yeah, just have full funnel marketing campaigns instead of just focusing on one part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like what's so interesting seeing how it's changed for towelscom is how you've really embraced that integrated approach of like having all the channel mix come together, that holistic, full funnel approach. Yeah, so many brands are not only not investing influencer, but then that conversation, that strategy piece is so far down the line. Yeah, so did it take a lot of work from you both, because obviously how you measure impact, sophie, will probably differ hugely to how you would measure impact in PR and comm. So how, so how do you, I guess? Do you establish like a KPI framework that has it all on paper, like we've got the whole funnel tracked here, or are you having to do sort of a bodge job of putting it together so you can then sell it in internally and say, look, this works. We need to really knuckle down on it.
Speaker 3:I think, like what Sophie was saying, you know, we'd built up those kind of influencer relationships through like gifting organically, and then we utilize those relationships and so actually we were saying to the business well, we've already had really great success with minimal, kind of minimal, money being put into this channel A lot of hard work.
Speaker 1:A lot of your time.
Speaker 3:You know relationship building building, but I love that yeah and here's how we can kind of elevate that and maximize the impact. Um, there are obviously different ways of measuring what sophie does and what I do, but I think as long as you recognize that, um, then you can fly. You know, it's not like we're both trying to kind of mash everything together. Um, we have different metrics, like for me. Obviously it's not like we're both trying to kind of mash everything together. Um, we have different metrics, like for me. Obviously it's like the engagement and the positive comment sentiment and the sentiment.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3:And then for sophie obviously she's looking at signups and she's looking at all those kind of things, um, but I think as long as you recognize that they, you know we need different things, but you can do it and make the most out of your budget yeah. That's what you know.
Speaker 1:then it's fine, I was going to ask then so maybe Sophie, from your side then we've heard how that earned piece was really vital in establishing towels amongst creators and driving that love From your side, sophie, how important has it been, not just to focus on user acquisition but I guess, yeah, building those relationships with influencers longer term as well.
Speaker 2:so it's not just flash in the pan. It's more how we find those long-term ambassadors yeah, I think that is having long-term ambassadors for us is definitely key, because we want those real authentic relationships with influencers, because feeding your dog a certain type of dog food, you don't easily switch into a new dog food, so it is yeah. So for us, having creators that we work with long term will build authenticity and trust with their audiences, which is what we want as well.
Speaker 2:It's so valuable to have yes variety of touch points throughout the year yeah, definitely, and I also think having brand it gives us a chance to work with them on different platforms as well, which will then target different type of audiences and will have different goals linked to KPIs, which is very important for us. Building all those relationships and gifting. What I did on my end is how we were working separately a little bit by then is there's at talescom, you have a testing budget which, when you put a gaze forward, you can that is, yeah, has solid ground to maybe build a new channel you can test with that. So what I started doing on my end is trying to get some of that budget to test bigger things with some yeah, some money behind it and then finally, um, after I think a year or two years, we got a set budget.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it was. It took multiple years to get to that point where?
Speaker 3:yeah, you've done testing. Yeah, and I think we were lucky in that we work for a company that really embraces testing these things. They're not afraid. I think it's that kind of startup mentality of like if things don't go quite right, it's okay because we can refine it, or if it doesn't work, that's also okay because there's more kind of flex. So when we saw an opportunity and we wanted to kind of run, with it.
Speaker 1:You know they ran with it, with us, which is great, they trusted you yeah yeah, as we say in a campaign rap, there's never failures, there's only learnings yes, does some learn? Yes, what I've always really loved because I think I wish more brands did this, and it's something I've always advocated for is that test and learn yeah it's so important.
Speaker 1:You'll see brands like, say, brands they've seen Gymshark saturate a niche with kind of a scattergun approach like volume, and that's really worked for them. It's delivered great returns. But that wouldn't work for towelscom Like you're trying to land, like you said, sophie, and I really want to touch on the insights in a moment. But, like, changing dog food is a huge commitment. We saw that actually owners during the cost of living crisis are far more likely to sacrifice their own food versus that of their pets, because we know how difficult bloody dogs can be with their diets.
Speaker 1:So how important would you say? It sounds as though testing has been absolutely vital in establishing and rationalising a consistent set budget. Like you said, what would be your advice to any other brands that are listening how do they start testing what is a good set budget? Like you said, what would be your advice to any other, like brands that are listening? How do they start testing what is a good test budget? Is there any sort of advice you would give?
Speaker 3:so if you have, no question, I would say so when I, when I, when I joined at talescom, there there was no influencer activity.
Speaker 3:my back at all, so you set it up and I remember in my interview I was like guys, I can help you with this, because my whole background was in bloggers and then influencers, um, from like the beauty side of things, um, and I it just I was like, if you have no budget, we can do strategic gifting so we can find find kind of. We tapped into communities of people so we really went after the interiors crowd because they had beautiful homes, beautiful dogs and they had beautiful imagery. Tick, tick, tick.
Speaker 1:So they could produce the content that looked premium yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, they already had the lovely setup and people would always ask them about their dogs. It was just a really engaged community. So we tapped into them, kind of to start off with kind of veering away from maybe the obvious, like dog fluencer sphere, which was very oversaturated, and we had really great success. And I think if you're being strategic about that gifting when you don't have much budget, you see which influencers come back to you and talk about your product and love it or talk about it with other people, about that gifting when you don't have much budget, you see which influencers come back to you and talk about your product and love it or talk about it with other people, and you get that kind of chatter building up and then, once you understand who's passionate about your brand, you can then build on that and you can go right, they really like this.
Speaker 3:We'll give them, say, three, six months free food so they can really try us out instead of gifting like treats and toys and whatever um, and then it's kind of kicking off like a snowball effect, so you don't have to be overwhelmed and intimidated about trying to come up with this huge strategy for a new channel you can start small and you can just see where it goes and, as you said, you did that yourself so when you first joined, it was just you person.
Speaker 1:What sort of scale are we talking Like when you first started? Maybe five, six influencers?
Speaker 3:Yeah, like tiny yeah, and then it just kind of built up and then you know you got stuff. You got some stuff back from some earned kind of coverage back, and then others were like not so keen. And then you just start to build a relationship, you know you just start to build a relationship.
Speaker 1:You know it's just essentially kind of a black book of creators that you know are really receptive to brand. Yeah, understand the positioning and love the product. Yeah, a snowball of authenticity, if you will.
Speaker 3:Well, there we go.
Speaker 1:I said it um, but sophie from your side yes completely. So it's not completely different, but the strategy is yes, different it is paying influencers. You'll be, you'll be measured on CPAs. Yes. How are we driving acquisition customers? Obviously, there's the one of customers, there's a long-term customers, there's the customer value. It's a whole different piece, but I guess with a brand's watching, they're thinking okay, influencer can be a viable customer acquisition channel.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How in the world do they start looking at that? Where do we begin?
Speaker 2:Yes, I think where I looked at first is what is important for the business to prove that it's driving value. So what you were just saying driving new customers, the cost per new customer acquisition, how long do those customers stay with us? And we had, when I started looking at influencers to drive new customer acquisition, we had some very established digital channels already, so one of those was Bates Ads. So I looked at how can we use influencers which is more authentic to drive new customer acquisition in that channel.
Speaker 1:So taking influencer content into the paid realm? Yes, authentic to drive new customer acquisition in that channel. So so, taking influence of content into the paid realm yes.
Speaker 2:So in how I did, it is basically then have very open conversations with the influencers that kezia lots of times already build a relationship with and said this is the plan. What we want long term is to work with you guys as ambassadors. We want it to work for both you and us, and what we look at is the new cost per acquisition, so that needs to be as low as possible for everyone and the customer needs to stay as long as possible on our subscription. So I would advise brands to look at different payment models. So do you pay a one-off fee or do you pay um one?
Speaker 2:Yeah, on an affiliate type model, and you can vary that as well, like it can be um both at the same time. If you have a set budget, it's easier to pay flat fees. However, you can just look at the influencers that are maybe a bit smaller but have great imagery, because you can amplify and choose your audiences when you do that bait beast, which was essential for us such a key point that is, finding those kind of smaller creators with amazing quality imagery yeah, and then using that for your the paid size, like we found really great I guess this is why I mean we've all seen it on TikTok like the rise of UGC creators yeah have you lent into UGC creators much yeah, yeah, and those that aren't aware who are listening.
Speaker 1:Essentially, ugc creator is an influencer without a following yeah someone making content. That looks really nice yeah, yeah so have you seen that? Back to the question, I guess have you seen more of that coming into what you guys do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, 100%, because what we look at more is, I think one of the biggest things for us is how is the relationship with the influencers? Because, like you can see, we're a team of two, so having easy, like easygoing relationships, people that you can trust.
Speaker 3:Easy to work with. Yeah, that's a massive thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's key for us and we look at, like, the quality of the imagery, um, how that works in in paid media as well, and then how, yeah, on the organic side of things, if that works for their audiences, because lots of times they will have very niche audience, audiences that you can tap into, which is great for us, because people that follow these dogs with great imagery they might have these dogs themselves, yeah, and want advice on what kind of food they need to feed them well, I think this is what we're seeing more of a social I know I'm doing it like whether it's house renovations or looking for a product to buy.
Speaker 1:I think we're all turning to social to really inspire our purchases.
Speaker 1:And I read an interesting piece the other day around how sort of TikTok and Reels and online social platforms have really just shaken up the funnel for Gen Z and millennials. It's essentially non-existent in the form that we knew it, because we're being pushed to purchase so much quicker than we were previously. I wanted to talk about you touched on insights purchase so much quicker than we were previously. I wanted to talk about you touched on insights and, as someone who loves a stat, I guess how important is it for you that the influencer work stream is justified in the first place.
Speaker 1:So perhaps I put it to you, I guess, is it always off the back of an insight or a research piece? Is there something that informs the strategy? Or you just like, okay, we, we know we need to tick off influencer, let's just go for it. Is there something that informs the strategy for you?
Speaker 3:I think it depends. I think a lot of times it can tie into like a PR campaign and we were doing that a lot more now I think kind of making the most of a campaign, stretching it across as many channels so and it's so seamless to include, influence it just makes complete sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but actually I guess you've seen until now influencers so often shut out of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, unfairly I think that's yeah. I mean again, I just think you should, it just should be part of your pr campaign now because it's tapping into a huge audience that like sitting there waiting to you know, I don't know. I think it's really key. Yeah, what?
Speaker 2:I'm thinking about as well is if, as a brand, you have a message that you want to get out there right and as consumers. If I think about a brand like trying to put that message out there via its own channels, obviously you get a bit tired sometimes of seeing that because you see it, We'd roll out campaigns across meta, across our own site, out of home television. There's lots of different channels and it's always a similar message Consumers get, I think me myself Creative fatigue right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we get tired of seeing it, but if you use an influencer, not use, that was the wrong word.
Speaker 1:If you, partner fairly with an influencer Voila.
Speaker 2:If you work together with an influencer.
Speaker 1:Collaborate.
Speaker 2:Collaborate. They can take your brand's messaging that you want to get across and tell it in the way that they want to tell it to different audiences probably and those audiences will listen because they're engaged with the influencer.
Speaker 1:Who knows their audience best?
Speaker 2:Yes, fala, so yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you know what this is actually? There's a question on this in a moment, but I'm just going to get to it now. You've just touched on brand messaging and we know working with influencers and influencers know working with brands. There's a fight, there's a balancing act to be had right. You want them to land USP brand messaging and call to action and the influencer is like I know how to speak to my audience best. So to you both, how important is it to find that balance and, I guess, relinquish some control to the influencer?
Speaker 3:So I would say we've chatted about this so much. Yeah, we think, if you as a brand, if you are sending an influencer a script, a really, really prescriptive brief, that is.
Speaker 1:It's a big ick.
Speaker 3:You're wasting your money.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Honestly because.
Speaker 1:The bottom line is you're wasting your money.
Speaker 3:You're wasting your money because you should be trusting that influencer to for them to story tell about your brand in an authentic way that is relevant to that audience, if they're reading from a script, that's just what are you doing.
Speaker 3:You may as well, hire an actor, you may as well. Yeah, it's just ridiculous. So we are very anti being prescriptive. Obviously, we have things like you say we need to kind of hit, hit and messaging, but there's there's a line and um, I think if you're telling influencers what to do, you're not, you're not going about it in the right way yeah, it's the perfect soundbite.
Speaker 1:In fact, I'm just using the trailer. Stop, bloody, telling influencers exactly what to say. You're wasting your money. You're wasting your money. It's're wasting your money.
Speaker 2:It's true, though, we tested it. Tried it Because, when we started out, obviously the business is saying this is what we expect from the channel, so we definitely tried. I'm going to be honest, I've definitely given it a try? I think yes, yeah yeah, yeah and it didn't work. And then I was thinking afterwards is this on me or on the influencer? And it is on you as a brand, because you're telling them what to say to their audience that is not used to hearing this.
Speaker 3:It doesn't work that way and you have to honour it. And actually Talescom and that feeding moment is part of that relationship. It builds that bond.
Speaker 3:It builds the love between the owner it builds love right, and I think that's where the emotive kind of storytelling really comes into play, you know. So we find that allowing, obviously allowing creators to go about this how they feel. You know, that piece of content, including Talescom, but not making it the sole focus is totally our jam. And actually we've actually had a lot of cases where, you know, potentially kind of newer influencers that we've worked with have come back to us with much more focus on the product than we want and we've said scale back a bit, because this is so ad-y.
Speaker 3:We don't like this. We kind of want it. You know we find ads the most engaging when you're like, hang on, was that an ad? And you're like God, that was so naturally woven in and you're not suddenly like, okay, I'm switched off, and I think that's the kind of midpoint we've tried to hit there's enough, not too much, yeah I we had an instance.
Speaker 1:So just briefly touching on the campaign we did together last year and it had been a quite a few months actually before, since we'd worked together and whole new team are pretty green and we're working on a poor astrology campaign and I think the first piece of content came in and we were like, great, they're hitting the messaging. But there was a real conversation moment between Crystal and our team and you where it was like let's just dial back the messaging. Yeah and I was like this is so refreshing, wow good because you you were just focusing on the storytelling, like you said.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it was around aligning star signs with dog types and I think we can all we can all relate to that um, but it was, it was really, really interesting to see and actually it was to the um, it was a real boon to the campaign because the content just outperformed what we'd expect it to have done because, like you said, kezia, is this even an ad? Because, it was seamlessly integrating, seamlessly integrating the brand into content that felt fun yeah felt cool, yeah, um.
Speaker 1:And then there was like follow-up messaging and additional content. But it was that moment where I was like this is why you guys were nominated for that award, which you should have won. Bombastic side eye around, like you know, balancing what creators want and more brands need to do it, and I think, um, it, do it. And I think it's definitely something that I would have valued as a creator, and there were so many instances where my voice felt stripped away from me as an influencer where I was like, okay, my audience is just going to see the content and be like, okay, get that bag.
Speaker 1:And then just like skip the ad you know and you can just it just reeks of of poor partnership.
Speaker 1:So we've touched on, you know, advice to brands that are trying to get into the space. What about finding the right influencers? So you've worked extensively with dog influencers people with dogs, families with dogs, something with dogs and you've done a lot of testing, as we've established over the years, from an awareness and consideration perspective, right down to that traffic and conversion. Were there ever instances where the partnerships that you had executed worried stakeholders or caused concern, and how did you navigate that? And then could we touch on your kind of filter around talent, because I think it's really important that brands have a filter, like the line in the sand, if you will, who they will or won't partner with. Like, have they spoken about gambling, tobacco, alcohol, um, and things like that? So have there been instances where the partnership wasn't the right fit? And then how have you ensured, moving forward, that you find the right ones?
Speaker 3:I. I do think we're quite lucky. We haven't had many partnerships that we've then looked back on and been like oh God, in fact I don't even know if we've had one where we've been like.
Speaker 2:That didn't work.
Speaker 3:That didn't align and I think that is because at the heart of everything we do, um, we want to work with happy, healthy dogs, and that's the common thread, um, and obviously there has to be an emphasis on you know the person creating content. It's not the dog, um, but um, you know, I, I gen generally feel like if, if you know we're working with creators who have beautiful, happy, healthy dogs, you know, um, then usually it's it works really well, um, I think, oh, this is really it's a really interesting question. I think it's really hard for brands when they kind of look out at the sea of influencers and they go where do I start?
Speaker 3:there's so many yeah, yeah, how do I, where do I even go? And I, I do think, just tapping into those kind of engaged communities and we've tried, we've tested loads of different verticals, you know, like kind of more comedic or lifestyle, or, yeah, home interiors, all of that kind of stuff. We've really been open and I think it's. I think just be open, I think just be open to seeing what works for you. Again, test and learn and don't be put off by the variety, because I feel like people who are talking and have a niche and like talk about that niche, usually where we've had, I would say, the most kind of success yeah, true, I would say as well, if you work with an influencer and it doesn't go as expected, I think there's always like learning opportunities and you can take that forward and next time you pay more attention to it.
Speaker 2:For example, I wouldn't say, like Kezia said, that there have been instances where we're like, oh, that wasn't great. Maybe there have been, but I feel like it's always been like test and learn. Same thing as we were saying previously, which has, in the end, benefited us and the influencer channel. So, yeah, so I guess.
Speaker 1:Then it all comes back to a test and learn approach where, yeah, not only establishing, like the, the channel, as being viable, but also like the persona or type of influence that you're partnering with. So even down to like, um, the verticals, like you said. So I'm sure there's something you haven't tried like asmr or yeah, how when I think verticals always come to asmr, and I think it says a lot about me. But like dog muck bangs, that could be something.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know one good tip actually sorry for brands is when we started looking at influencers, especially from a paid point of view. I looked at the other channels that are already established at talescom. What kind of verticals do they tap into? So what kind of audiences work for us on paid? What works for us out of home, anything like that? We took and then looked for those niches and influencers and that has worked really well for us yeah, so I could.
Speaker 1:I guess you could say you're looking for the poor fict partners. You could say that moving swiftly on um we've, we've kind of. I had my questions laid out.
Speaker 1:These conversations flowed so naturally I feel we've touched on most of them um, I guess my my final questions are kind of around establishing, um the work streams in the first place. How important, would you say? I guess this is a question for you in the first instance. And then Sophie, about your build on that. How important is earned and gifting as a relationship builder? And then, I guess, how do you take it beyond that? Because obviously you should, I I guess, pay influencers fairly for their time. So how important is it, earned and gifted? Influencers aren't obligated to post anything, so how do you nurture that relationship? And then, sophie, how do you build on that and take it to the next level for a paid partnership?
Speaker 3:so, yeah, when I first joined tailscom, as I mentioned, there was no influencer activity, um, so we started with earned and I think that the, the value of that continues, um, you know, moving on like even now you've paid them absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3:You know we've got new launches. They all get the new launch. If we, if we notice on Instagram that their dog's poorly or they've had an operation or you know there's something going on in their life and they need a bit of support, we're in there. We send the dog something to, you know, wish them well, and I think it's those little touch points that continue to kind of resonate and, um, you know, just a touch point to go okay, the brand is still there, they still, like, value me as an influencer, um, they care about my dog. I think it's those little touch points that make you more human, more kind of like not just a brand, not just a brand person at the other end as well.
Speaker 3:Um, so I think it's hugely important for for maintaining, Because obviously we don't well, actually not obviously we don't have the budget to consistently work with. You know, all of our favourite creators. We're still kind of developing that channel, so earned kind of coverage and gifting plays a huge, huge part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then I guess, sophie, on on that, you would identify perhaps influences you've worked with from an earned perspective and think actually they've already got a great relationship. It's time we paid them, because we're looking at include them in a paid media or we want them to be part of a fuller campaign experience yes, and then I guess you'd then pick up again. Kezia, where you just stay in touch yeah, is that is that fair yeah, correct.
Speaker 2:So I would say, on building on what Kezia has just said, when we sat down at the end of last year to build our influencer strategy for this year, gifting is like core part of that because, like Kezia said, we don't have the budget to constantly run really big campaigns. In between the moments that we don't have these big campaigns running, we can give them and say we're still engaged with you, yeah, and then give them free food as well so they can keep feeding tails or come, because obviously otherwise, it wouldn't make any sense yeah, that is a really key thing especially when I think one of the key things is, like you said at the start, people stick with their dog food for a long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you want to be front of mind all throughout the year, even if you're just doing like a christmas activation or like a valentine's day yeah activation.
Speaker 2:So staying front of mind, I guess yeah definitely one thing that I wanted to touch up on as well is when we so guess, yeah, the all the groundwork on building those relationships and once we then started working with those influencers on a paid from a paid perspective, I think one thing that I'm very proud of from us is that we told each other we're going to pay each influencer at least this minimum fee, Because even if they have five followers, but we believe in them as in we think their account can grow.
Speaker 2:they have the right imagery, we can work with them easily, we can use their assets for paid and we can do something organic as well and they're the right tone of voice for our brand. They should be paid fairly because they put so much time and effort in creating that content, so that we have like a baseline and then, obviously, based on engagement rates, what kind of campaign we use them in.
Speaker 3:Rates go up or down, but yeah, that's a big one and we've had instances where creators have come to us and they're kind of new and they've gone OK, well, I would ask for this fee. And we've turned around and gone. You're underselling yourself, like this is not enough and they are so grateful because there isn't that transparency around pay and we really believe in opening up that conversation yes, and we're not, you know. I don't think it's fair for brands to sometimes abuse um exploit that, that's the better word.
Speaker 1:Exploit that naivety 100 I think, um and we've touched on this before, but I think one of the key things for us and I'm so happy that you do this um we have our own, like dni framework and a part that is equitable pay, making sure that, yeah, uh, influencers, no matter what walk of life they're from, are paid fairly for their contribution. Yeah, there's been so many instances, particularly for, like, black creators, that have undercharged and we've said no. Say for illustration purposes they've said 500 pounds for a post.
Speaker 1:We said you're getting a thousand yeah because of x, and you know, explaining that, yeah, yeah um, and I guess that kind of ties into my last question quite nicely um, I touched on our dni framework, but you work with a lot of different agencies for different, for different reasons um reasons, including some to support influencer activity. Do you have any advice to brands who are looking to onboard the right agency partner? Hopefully, as is evident here, chemistry is really important, but is there a scorecard system? What should brands look out for? When should they start looking at external resource and support?
Speaker 2:I'll start. So for us it was very key to have someone support us, because we got a set budget now for influencer marketing. But what are we going to do with it? Because we're a two-person team, we can't do everything and also we don't have all of that knowledge right. So agencies can help you broaden the scope and really run bigger campaigns for you, where you get lots of learnings from, also for your internal activity. So one of the key points for me obviously we have our procurement team that has scorecards we all love procurement.
Speaker 1:Yes, necessary step yes, 100.
Speaker 2:But also, I think for us, agencies are very much an extension of our team where we work with day on a day-by-day basis. So communication is key and you need to have tech chemistry and you need to want to work with them every day. And I think a key point for us as well is open communication, being honest and open.
Speaker 1:Yeah, transparency in the partnership, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think a big shift I've seen over the past few years is moving from just being a supplier to being, like you said, like one team. Yeah so there is no value to be had in like a quick burst of activity where the agency has pulled the war over your eyes and said, oh like we've taken that 60% of you know fees and it's like where are we going with this? Like what is the long term?
Speaker 1:gain here so so communication is vital. Transparency custom emojis on a slack channel yeah yes or no? So crucial, crucial we were discussing these before angry frog, angry frog.
Speaker 3:Enough said on that one, my colleagues are going to love that I've mentioned this it's going to get HR and you're like take this down remove at 46 seconds or minutes, please.
Speaker 1:But on that point I will end on that. We have got some quickfire questions that I want to run through. But also for Christmas, you sent our office some treats for our dogs and I got a Jack Brussel.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Now I want to float the idea of another toy that I know my dog would also love A collie flower as in border collie. Very cute.
Speaker 3:I will pay you, commission, on that?
Speaker 1:yeah um, if you go any further with it, perfect. You heard it here first, um, but we have got some quick fire questions and these are generally just fun ones that I think you will enjoy as dog lovers as well. But, sophie, before I get into that, which dog did you decide is your? I have? Been thinking about it I can tell when I'm looking at you it's turning in the back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's turning should we give you one yes, yeah, because I feel like people see you from a different perspective.
Speaker 1:Then because you know sophie best.
Speaker 2:Oh so I'm gonna make that with some kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm gonna uh put your relationship on uh no tenderhooks right now oh I trust you, sophie you said old English sheepdog earlier oh yes.
Speaker 2:I see it yes, that would be cute.
Speaker 1:Yes, but specifically the ones that have a little hair tie to stop the hair going in their eyes.
Speaker 2:I see it oh yeah, that's a compliment loyal, loyal, loyal.
Speaker 1:I have a good gift at guessing people's Harry Potter, houses and, apparently, dogs. So wow, at guessing people's.
Speaker 3:Harry.
Speaker 1:Potter houses and, apparently, dogs. Wow, I have you down as Hufflepuff, by the way, and you as a Ravenclaw.
Speaker 3:I can see myself as a Ravenclaw. I see this. Yes, I'm Hufflepuffy, though.
Speaker 1:Or Gryffindor. We'll pick this one up later Maybe.
Speaker 3:Gryffindor the hat did change its mind once.
Speaker 1:It can change its game.
Speaker 2:Remember, it's what Same Main character energy Like Harry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, go on, then we're ready TikToks or Reels, tiktoks, because I always get sent TikToks that are then Reels by people that are just my husband.
Speaker 3:Sends me Reels that I've already seen, because they were from TikTok.
Speaker 1:Cancel him, cancel him, he's going to love.
Speaker 3:I mention that.
Speaker 1:You've aged him. I know Sorry, quick fire Continue, I aged him I know Sorry, quick fire Continue Sorry.
Speaker 2:Favourite dog breed oh, Gorgie Lab.
Speaker 1:Gemma Shepherd.
Speaker 3:Chat or Riz.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 3:I'm too old for this.
Speaker 2:Meanie Chat, chat. I can't say Riz, I'm not allowed, I can't.
Speaker 1:The sound ages me Instant mastery.
Speaker 3:What skill are you choosing?
Speaker 1:Oh, Cooking, oh no.
Speaker 3:Oh god, this is not quite fire is it Jeez Painting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think drawing.
Speaker 3:Same. I'm rubbish at that. Actually, I'll take it.
Speaker 1:Because we make money from that, can't we?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or content creator Content creator yeah.
Speaker 3:Crocs and socks.
Speaker 1:Depends.
Speaker 3:If you're in the house, it's alright. Backdoor shoes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Or content creator Content creator yeah, crocs and socks Depends If you're in the house, it's all right.
Speaker 2:Backdoor shoes yeah, yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Crocs don't come for me, summer or winter.
Speaker 3:Summer. Do you believe in ghosts? I was going to say winter. Sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm going to go winter. Do you believe in ghosts?
Speaker 1:Ooh Kind of.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:Phone calls or texting, texting.
Speaker 3:I'm a millennial. I hate a phone call. I like a phone call, but I would always text over it.
Speaker 1:Wait, you called me at one point Sophie and I was like this is so not us, why Hang up. And last one one do you use?
Speaker 3:your own Netflix account or use someone else's my own- yeah, I have to use my own now, yeah my husband's family has a family account and so we're on that good for you.
Speaker 1:I don't know if we can leave this in age 30 we're still on the family account.
Speaker 3:Yes, you are he knows about it. There's no, there's no drama here.
Speaker 1:We're all fully aware and, on that note, thank you to George for the questions. Thank you produce, george. We'll be back next episode when we deep dive into the paranormal. Again, big thank you to both for joining me today. As ever, I love our chats. What can we expect this year from Tal's more?
Speaker 3:influencer. Obviously more influencer, more ambassadors more creators.
Speaker 1:As ever, I love our chats.
Speaker 3:What can we expect this year from TALS? More influencer.
Speaker 2:Obviously More influencer, more ambassadors, more creators. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, ambassadors.
Speaker 3:Creators Bigger, better.
Speaker 1:Cute dogs at the heart of everything, big and cute dogs.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Old English sleep dogs with bows in their hair, fingers crossed and more diesel. Their hair, fingers crossed and more diesel, if you want to find more diesel content. In fact, you can follow sophie over on linkedin and also kezia on linkedin as well. You're both on linkedin yes, of course of course we are.
Speaker 2:We're all corporate professionals these days yep corporate girlies that's the soundbite that's the teaser done.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining sophie kezia and myself for this episode of the what they Said Influencer Marketing Podcast, powered by Pretty Green, where we deep dive into everything to do with the creator economy and conversations that are definitely less had regarding influencers and all sorts of things. Join us next time, where we will lift the lid on more conversations you weren't expecting and we'll see you again soon. Thank you very much.
